More Omaha H/L

In the last post, we got a few of the basics covered regarding Omaha H/L.

I was thinking of continuing this but first I want to talk a little about what Gopher mentioned in his reply in the last post.

Goph mentioned that he plays Omaha H/L better drunk. He admittedly points out the fact that it is probably luck that gets him through but it raises an interesting point.

Now, I am going to talk about plain Monkeys, drunk Monkeys, and aggressive Monkeys but I want this in no way to reflect on Goph. He is a good player. He just mentioned it and it got me thinking.

If you are drinking. In my opinion, the best game to play is Omaha H/L pot limit.

Why, you say? Well, lets look at it compared to No Limit. In Omaha you get 4 cards down. In No Limit you only get 2. So, right at the start, you have a lot more possible hand combinations.

In Omaha, there is typically, less pre-flop raising so the cost to play is generally cheap.

In No Limit, good hands tend to pre-flop raise to narrow the field of players so you have less opportunities to play.

But, there is a down side. If you don’t know what you are doing, or aren’t paying attention in Omaha H/L you can loose a lot of chips.

Lets say you have Qc, 9c, 10d, 4h (this is a typical Monkey calling hand).

The flop comes 8h, 8s, 10h.

Ok, you have been drinking and don’t recognize the fact that PP 8’s or anyone with a 8 10 has you crushed and there is a flush draw out there but you call anyway because you have 2 pair and a str8 draw.

The turn comes 8d.

Here is where a BIG mistake is made by a lot of people. If you think you now have a Full House, 3 8’s and 2 10’s, you are wrong. Your hand is 3 8’s with a Q high. Remember you have to use 2 cards from your hole cards. Anyone holding a PP in their hole cards has a FH not you. (Since a lot of people don’t realize this, if I had a PP, I would bet at this time if I were in this hand).

The river comes 10c

Ok, now you got it right? FH 10’s over 8’s. WRONG. You have 3 10’s. You still have to use 2 cards from your hand  so the 8’s don’t play. Anyone with a PP 2’s or higher in their hole cards has a FH.

I lost a lot of chips with this type of hand once in a League game. The difference was I had a 8 and a 10 so I flopped a full house. 8’s over 10’s. I slow played (stupid move on my part).

The turn wasn’t a 8 it was a A and the river was a rag.

When the turn hit, I bet a little and got called and when the river hit I bet more and got called. The person I was playing against flips over 2 A’s. So, he has a FH A’s over 8’s which beat my FH.

My mistake was slow playing the hand. I should have bet the flopped FH hard.

So, to conclude, if you have had a little too much to drink, I would suggest playing Omaha H/L. The Monkey play can survive easier since there are a lot of hand possibilities and there can be a split pot if low cards hit.

But, if you do this, don’t sit at my table cause I will eventually get ya!

GL

Omaha H/L

I didn’t play a lot this weekend but when I did play, I played mostly Omaha H/L Pot limit.

It seems a few of us have been playing that game more often. Maybe is a case of boredom with Hold Em or just something different to try to get the enthusiasm back.

I like this game. I wouldn’t play it every day, all the time, but it can be challenging at times. I also think it is easier to win money if you know what you are doing. My experience has shown that there are a lot of people out there playing this game that don’t have a clue as to what they are doing.

I am not going to sit here and tell you I am the best player at this game. I will however offer some general advice that may help your game.

Pinkdog, Netty, Blagger and others are much better at this game than I am but in an effort to help, I will start this discussion up. Of course, those that read this (all four of you..lol) and get better may end up not giving me as much money as they used to but better play makes the game more challenging and fun.

These are going to be very general tips. If the discussion gains momentum, we can delve into more advanced play in later posts.

First off, you need to understand the rules. Basically, you are dealt 4 cards down. Then 5 community cards are dealt. The player with the best high hand (using 5 of the cards) gets the high pot and the player with the best low hand (using 5 of the cards) all 8 or under gets the low pot.

Things to remember. One, you MUST use 2 cards from your hole cards to make either the high or low hand.

A low hand is from 8 or lower so the community cards have to have a minimum of 3 cards that are 8 or lower.

Omaha H/L tend to be more of a post flop game so pre-flop raising doesn’t happen too often. There are so many more hand possibilities out there since you have 4 cards, pre-flop raising can be tricky.

Since there isn’t a lot of pre-flop raising, beginners tend to call a lot of hands. when I first started playing Omaha H/L, I used to do the same thing. After about an hour into the tourny, I would be short stacked wondering where all my money went. Sure, once in a while my hand would hit, but those players playing the better starting hands will eventually prevail and eat away my chip stack. Lesson one – know what a good starting hand is in Omaha H/L.

Before we get into starting hands, lets look at another common beginner mistake. The object in Omaha H/L is to SCOOP. Scooping is taking the whole pot and not splitting it with another player. In order to scoop, you need the best high hand and the best low hand. The best low hand is A, 2, 3, 4, 5 or a wheel.

In order to have the best low hand you would need a A and 2. So, most any starting hand should have a A and a 2. Of course, there are cases where this might not be necessarily true but in most cases, a A and 2 in your hand should be a minimum.

Usually, pairing the board or even 2 pair are not enough to win a high hand. There is normally a str8 or flush draw considering there are so many cards in play. So, the other consideration with a starting hand is to have some sort of flush or str8 draw. So, a suited A with a 2 and a high card plus another low card in case you get counterfeited (later discussion) are good starting hands. So, As, 2s, 3h and Kh would be a pretty good starting hand. You have a good low draw. A nut flush draw. A secondary flush draw. A str8 draw and another card to protect your low.

Lesson 2 – You need to watch closely

Another beginner mistake. There are 3 or more people in the hand. The beginner has A 2 and 3 low cards are on the board. So, the beginner has nut low. The beginner is first to act. They bet because they have the nut low. To me, with 3 or more people in the hand, this is a big mistake. Why? you ask. Only one high hand is going to win. If a low card comes on the turn or the river and A 2 starts betting, another player with A 2 will call of course. The player with the high hand SHOULD raise if he thinks he up against 2 hands with A 2.

When the hand is over, the high hand will get half the pot. The 2 low hands would split the other half. This is called getting “quartered”. You can actually end up losing money if you get quartered. So, watch the board and try not to bet into a quartered hand.

This is starting to get long so maybe next time we talk about counterfeited hands, when to raise pre-flop, when to fold, etc.

Come on H/L people. Lets hear from ya…..

As always, GL at the tables.

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Big pot suck outs – continued

Well, my last post was a jumbled mess. I am trying to communicate something and I am not doing a very good job of it.

My buddy, Blagger reminded me of that in his answer to my previous post.

So, I am going to make it worse by expanding on it in this one…lol

I think, what I was trying to talk about was more about identification of a hand/opponent than the actual suck out. Blagger made a good point. If you aren’t in the big pot to be sucked out in the first place you aren’t playing right.

By definition, being “sucked out” means you went in with the best hand. What more can you ask for than to be in the big pot with the best hand going in? Isn’t that the point? Doyle even teaches that. He will go in big pots sometimes knowing he is behind but he may gamble if he has a chance because winning the big pot is one of the keys to successful poker.

I want to try to minimize my exposure to being sucked out on. I want to learn more about identifying whether or not I am in a situation where I can be sucked out.

Lets try a example. I was playing in a League game the other day. I was in late position and watching. A League player (not going to name them because I don’t want them to change their style) was utg and raised about 6 times the BB. I knew right then and there that player was on PP J’s or PP 10’s. (well, not exactly J’s or 10’s but a med/high pp).

So, when it was my turn to act, there was no way I was going to play anything unless it was PP Q’s or higher. A K is a race with me behind so even if I had A K I probably would have folded. (I say probably because it would have depended on how much alcoholic stupidity I had consumed..lol). That decision keeps me out of a suck out scenario.

On the opposite side of that fence, I want to get better at trying to identify what kind of hand I am up against when I am the one with the PP 10’s and I get called. So, lets say I am the one that raised with PP 10’s and I get a caller. The button calls the raise, everyone else folds. What do you think?

My thought process before the flop hits would be something like this (this is general, assume chip stacks are about the same and player competency is about the same. Chip stack differences and player competency WILL effect my decision).

My first thought is my opponent isn’t on PP Q’s or higher. If so, they probably would have re-raised (maybe PP A’s being slow played but usually that doesn’t happen). I also wouldn’t put them on middle to low suited connectors. PP 2-8, probably not. So, I figure I am up against A K, A Q, A K suited, A Q suited, K Q suited, maybe A J suited. So, since I am first to act after the flop I will need to consider my thinking.

If the flop comes 3 cards under 10’s rainbow – all in. ( this is where I could be setting myself up for a “suck out”) I don’t want any high cards coming out on the turn or river. I don’t want possible back door flush draws either. Usually, the all-in bet will win the hand. However if you opponent thinks your bluffing or I misread the hand, I may get called. I really don’t want A K calling. I am ahead in the hand but A K has 6 outs to “suck out”. (Ok, Blagger is going to be all over this one cause he is going to want to know how much is in the pot, how much the bet was, so he can figure pot odds, etc.). If he calls, I am happy with my chances and will hopefully prevail.

What if the flop comes K, rag, rag, rainbow? I am first to act. What do I do? This is where a lot of beginners make a mistake. They check.

As I mentioned above, there are a lot of possible hands that my opponent can be playing. How are you supposed to “narrow the field” by checking? Checking gives you no additional information on what you are up against. In this scenario, I would bet. Not all-in or anything but a “good” bet. Remember, you pre-flop raised. What your opponent does with the bet will  usually give you some real good information.

If he just calls, I would narrow down his possible hands to a K with a “weak” kicker like a Q or a J, or maybe another PP and hoping to catch. I think A K would re-raise. I wouldn’t put them on 2 pair because they probably wouldn’t have called a big pre-flop raise with K crap. If you get re-raised, you are probably beat and you can fold.

Now you’re thinking “Shit, he called. Now what do I do?”. 

Ok, lets say the turn is a 10. Yee Haw, you just hit trips. Now what do you do? In my opinion a lot of people make a mistake here with a check because they are trying to trap. Look up two paragraphs and see what hand I could narrow down with a call. K Q or K J. If your opponent is on one of those hands, a check just let him see a free card to see if he can hit a str8. If you check, and he goes all-in on you, you are going to call. (this is another place where you set yourself up for a “suck out”). Your opponent probably won’t put you on trips so a check would, to him, possibly show weakness, and he may force the issue with a medium kicker and a str8 draw.

So, I would have bet the trips, hard. To try to avoid a “suck out” call.

This is what I am talking about. Trying to minimize situations where I put myself in hands that make “suck outs” more possible.

See, I was right. It got longer and more confusing….lol

Anyway, hopefully I will see some of the Skype crew soon. I miss all of ya!

Take care.

Comments are always welcome……     

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Big pot suckouts

Yeah, I know. Its been a long time in between posts. However, looking at the other links here, it hasn’t been as long as some.

I was thinking this morning about big pot suck outs.

It happens to all of us AND we have done it to others.

The reason I was thinking about it was I was playing in a 7stud h/l SNG the other day, (not my normal game but I am trying to get interested in the game again and thought I would try something different), and I sucked out a big pot which took someone out and the others at the table weren’t too happy about it. I don’t remember the exact details of the hand. I remember I had 2 3 suited in the hole and on the flop I had 2 pair. The other guy had a K with 2 rags showing. He bet real hard so I figured him for trip K’s. To make a long story short, I hit another 3, got a FH and took him out. (no low hand).

I had the hand figured correctly, he did have trip K’s but I chased a little and here is where I came up with a couple of reasons you get sucked out on big pots.

I should have lost that hand and more often than not, I will. So, I was thinking 2 things. How to avoid getting myself in that position when I suck out, what is my opponent thinking when he sucks out on me.

1. Donkey – Ok – obviously you have the total Donkey player who will call on anything. This isn’t the type of suck out I am talking about. I am talking about the one where the player has been pretty “stable” then all of a sudden – suck out.

2. Not looking ahead – This is what happened in my example above. After the flop I had 2 pair. When the guy bet hard, I read the hand right and put him on trips. Then I said to myself “I’ll call and take one more card to see if it improves my hand”. I had a shot at a low hand and if I read it right, he didn’t. I looked at this from a one more card perspective, not a whole hand perspective. I didn’t look at his chipstack, how much I would be invested with the call, what the pot odds for us would be IF I called, and what would happen if the next card just improved my hand and would add more outs. So I called and, if I remember right, I got a Q which didn’t improve my hand. But, my opponent was short stacked so he went all-in. I called because it wasn’t that much more and sucked out.

3. Not believing you – I think sometimes, I get sucked out on, or suck out others because they represent a hand and I don’t believe them. For example, a A K J rainbow flop. You have JJ so you hit trips. You opponent bets like he has the str8. You don’t believe him so you call. You opponent has the Q 10 but the board pairs and you suck out. Most of the time you will loose that hand but you got lucky and hit. Previous play, number of hands played, betting patterns, etc. could all add up to making the decision on whether or not you think your opponent is bluffing. 

This isn’t a very cohesive post. I am rambling a little here. My point of the whole post is to try to learn more about why I do things in certain situations so I can learn from them and not do them again.

I don’t want to be labeled as a Donkey and I don’t think I am. However, I WILL gamble and I will call you if I think you are screwing around with me.

What have I learned. Don’t stop thinking when you are in a hand. Think of the whole hand, not just the moment or the next card. Also, be patient. Sometimes you have to lay down a really strong hand even when it doesn’t look like you should.

I don’t get upset anymore (well, most of the time anyway) when I get sucked out on. I don’t care whether or not someone hit their “one outter”. What’s done is done. What I want to get better at is not getting myself in those situations in the first place. If you aren’t in it, it won’t happen to you.

Any thoughts/comments?

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